Quaker Heritage Press > Online Texts > The Bunyan-Burrough Debate > Burrough, Truth Witnessed Forth [3 of 3]

< previous | part 1 | part 2 | part 3 |

And whereas thou seemest to be greatly offended, and stumbling very much at my answers to thy Queries, because thy carnall conceptions is not satisfied, nor thy vain minde gratified, having as thou thinkst great occasion against me thereby, which causes thy mouth to be opened in vapouring words aloft, against the simplicity of the Gospel, not understanding my words; for the things of the Kingdom of God is a parable to thee, and sealed from thee, never to be known in the reason in which thou judgest.

But in short thus I Reply, I did not purpose to answer fully to them, to feed any mans wisdom with my knowledge of the things of Gods Kingdom; [editor's note] for the Queries were not fully directed to the Quakers; so that quench thy anger, and according to my answer, go seek a further answer (or else be thou still unsatisfied) from them who are led with a spirit of delusion, for such a direction requires, no full answer from me, nor any of us, who are in the truth, and not in the delusion, neither did I purpose, nor do I at any time, to answer fully to such things as are directed in a great part to others; I am not a servant especially to them that are led with a spirit of delusion, to fulfil thy will: But yet the short answers that I gave, (which was not in the behalf of delusion) but for the truths sake, I still own though thou cannot understand them, but products many bad lying wicked consequences from them, and my purpose was not to feed thy foolish wisdom in answering; nor to satisfie thy reason to receive praise from thee, or any man; for so I know it must be in hearing and seeing, thou must not perceive nor understand, who art of the Generation hardened, and in parable is the Kingdom of Heaven unto thee, and I rejoyce the rather in being a stumbling to thee, in that state wherein thou standest, then that I should have gratified thee; for I seek not, nor receives honour from man, in what I do; but is covered from the Worlds knowledge and know this, if thou cannot receive the Kingdom of Heaven as a little leaven, thou shalt never know it; But yet how wicked art thou in this also, though not understanding me, in what I said, yet so fouly wronging me with above 30. false charges and slanders from my words, which thou reaches not the knowledge of, so it will be enough.

Reply, to sum up thy Lyes, and send them back to thee to seek them out, and an evidence for them, and the Querys, and my Answers shall stand, as they are to be judged of by honest men, while we are both silent in our own cause, they are to be seen at large in my first Book, The true faith of the Gospel contended for, &c. in the 26, 27, 28, pages.

And whereas further I speak at the end of my Answers of Christ within the hope of glory and said it is that mystery which long hath been hid from Ages, but now is made manifest and declared, and though the wise of this World cannot receive it, but speaks evil against it, yet it is dear unto us, and so much more precious because despised by such as him, and such things are a testimony to us, and against you, (viz.) our Enemies, &c. As in my 29. Page of my first may be seen; and most wickedly this, or part of it, he calls babling, and says he passes by it.

O horrible impudency! What marvel that he should so belye me, when as he hath called the very Scripture truth, spoken forth in righteousness, bablings? and these things I leave the Reader to Judge of, and all his Lyes thrown upon me impudently; and consider, what ground this man hath from my answers to be seen in my first Book to broach out and belch out such a number of Lyes and Slanders, in five sides of paper, not any one of them (charged against me falsly) were spoken by me, or ever in my thoughts to speak, or ground given by any of my words for such productions, as it is seen what lodges in the heart of such a Fellow, even desperate wickedness, who is without any shame or honesty, who dare utter such things against the upright, who hates not his Enemies; but while I am clear in the sight of God, from all his false Slanders, I matter not what John Bunion says of me, who is as a man given up to wickedness who in less then a sheet of paper hath uttered thirty Lyes, or more, which I may particularly manifest before he can find evidence; a great wickedness? can this mans Converts be good, while himself is unconverted? is he a Minister of Christ? for shame let it not be told so; well, I beg not vengeance against him, but leaves my answers to be read, who will clear me from his lying consequences, most wickedly conceived, and as wickedly uttered (By one of Gogs Army) against a Member of Jesus.

Now I come to reckon up his damnable Doctrines, and errors, which are contrary to the truth; as will manifestly appear to him that is spiritual; some of them damnable without comparison.

[anticipated by Burrough] John Bunion said,That Christs second coming, is not his coming in Spirit, for his coming in Spirit, is no coming. He saith, this (or part of it) is a lye made of him by me; when as several Witnesses, doth testifie in righteousness, that those very words were spoken by him, in Pauls steeple-house in Bedford Town, May 23. 1656. as is witnessed; and yet this man is so impudent, that he denyes what he spake, (or is ashamed of his words) and so would cast the Lye upon me, who is clear, and the wickedness lies at his door; and whereas he would prove that the second coming of Christ, is not his coming in Spirit, I say I will not beg him to believe it, but as he believes, so be it unto him; and all that he saith doth not prove, but that Christ promised, and fullfilled to his Disciples, that he would come again to them, (mark) again is a second time; If any man hath an ear let him hear. And then he saith, he will not trouble himself to lay this to my charge, in that it was said of him Christs coming in spirit is no coming; it may be he repents of what he hath said, being better considered, since he hath already falsly charged me with it, as some in the County of Bedford knows very well, that he hath falsly charged me, and denyed his own words, spoken by his own mouth. To this is two witnesses.

John 14.

[anticipated by Burrough] Also he said, Take notice, that I affirm, that there is nothing in me, nor in any man to be taken notice of, These are his own words spoken by him April 12. 1656. at Patnam, witnessed by three men, who heard it from his mouth, and this charge he doth not fully deny, but in a great measure he assents to it, yet would cover his shame a little with a Lye, in saying Directly in this form of words he did not lay them down; but this will not serve to hide his Reprobate state, for to his face it may be testified he spoke the words, as I have laid them down; and therefore consider against whom I am yoaked, against one that is a Reprobate, and without Christ in him, one that hath denyed Christ in him, or else thinks Christ not worth taking notice of. O abominable ignorance, why should such a fellow take the things of God in his mouth, who hath denyed Christ in him, and the Spirit of Christ? indeed it appears that he doth take notice of nothing in him, else he would have been wounded with the Light in his own Conscience, before he had brought forth thus many Lyes; it seems he takes notice of nothing in him, but is past feeling; damnable doctrine indeed, without comparison, that ever one professing to be Minister of Christ, should be so stark blind and wicked; yea, we have taken notice of what thou hast said; and it shall be recorded for ignorance of the greatest sort; but he would evade the thing and give a sence upon his words, and in such a sence he owns, and in such a sence he denyes it, but what is this to the purpose, except he confess it, (as it is) that he is unregenerate, and if so, he confesses the Light of God is in him, and then to be taken notice of, if it be but to condemn him.

O blindness to be marked! well, this mans folly hath appeared sufficiently, who confesses this Light in every man is the Light of Christ, as God, and yet saith, he affirms there is nothing in him, nor any man, (regenerate or unregenerate without exception, his words here spoken) worth the taking notice of.

[anticipated by Burrough] The rest of the particulars charged upon his Fellows is passed by with the excuse of wanting the names expressed, may be he is glad to be ignorant in this thing, but lets search; [editor's note] John Burton said, That Christ had two bodies, one out of the sight of the Saints; in Bedford, May 23. 1656. And to this Joh. Bunion confesses, but would excuse it if he could, and would manifest that Christ hath two bodies, clean contrary to the Scripture, which affirms, Ephes. 4.4. Now no marvel that he gain-sayes me, when as he hath gain-said the Apostle, who saith expressly, There is one body, but they say two bodies; let them be ashamed for ever, thus to contradict Scripture.

John Spencly (one of the Testators of this lying Scrole, a Member of the same supposed Church) said, that Christ, and the Word of Life were two things, and so would divide Christ contrary to Joh. 6.48. where Christ saith, he is the bread of Life; and contrary to 1 Joh. 1.2. The 23d. of the 8th. Month, 1656, John Bunion and one Fen, and Joh. Child laid down; May 23. 1656 In Bedford.

1. That God dyed, And that very God, and the everlasting Father dyed, contrary to many Scriptures, as Dan. 4.34. and 12.7.

2. They affirmed, That the Word that was in the beginning was crucified upon the Cross, contrary to 1 Peter 1.23.

3. They affirmed, That Justification is without obedience, But yet say I, None is Justified in disobedience, but all condemned in it, let them mark that; and there is but either in obedience, or in disobedience, and he that is a Believer and justified, is not without obedience.

4. That There is a light which convinceth of sin, besides the Light of Christ, and John Bunion in all his Book cannot prove any is convinced of sin, that hath not the Light of Christ, or that any thing besides the Light of Christ doth convince of sin; so that his confusion doth appear.

5. That There is no saving knowledge, but what comes without from Heaven, contrary to 2 Cor. 4.6,7, where it is said the light shone in their hearts out of darkness, J. Child deny'd that the man Christ Jesus had given a Light to every man that comes into the World, contrary to Joh. 1.9.

Also he denyed, That every man was lighted, that they might believe, contrary to Joh. 12.36,35. Joh. Burton said, That a man might be upon the foundation, and yet deny Christ, Now the Scripture saith, Matth. 10.33. He that denys Christ, shall be denyed of the Father, and the Father denys not any that are on the foundation, as they affirm.

Another of them said, That the Word that was hid in Davids heart was the outward Scriptures.

Another of them affirmed, That he was justified from all his sins, past, present and to come; and said, there was Scripture in the Acts to prove it.

John Burton said, That a man is not justified by the Spirit; [editor's note] John Bunion said the 30. of the 11. month, That the Spirit of Christ doth nothing (Mark) within man, as to justification; he affirmed, That the Flesh of Christ is not within any man; then there is no man that hath life in him, if Christs words be true, Joh. 6.53. and Christs words is true, and therefore John Bunions doctrine is damnable.

[editor's note] He said, That by the Kingdom of Heaven, within the Pharisees, Luke 17. Christ speaks of himself there, as a personal man to be that Kingdom of Heaven; Mark here what the substance of this is; doth he mean that the person of Christ was in the Pharisees? This is witnessed by many.

O horrid blindness! not to be parrelelled.

He said, The best thing in a natural man is Impure, and yet in this Book confesses that the Light of God is in all men, so that must be impure, else Joh. Bunions doctrine is a Lye; but the Light of God is pure, and therefore Joh. Bunions doctrine is a Lye.

He said, that the Scripture, In every place doth not mean as it speaks, and instanced that in Peter, not to mean as it speaks, where it is said, yea, as lively stones are built up a spiritual house; and where it is said, have Salt in your selves; He asked if a mans belly must be filled with salt, Mark this Expositor, and his blindness and ignorance, and the cause why he is silent, And forbears to aggravate sin is, least hard thoughts should be entertained against him; Let men judge, whether this be not an unfaithful man to the Lord, who rather then harsh thoughts should be against him in the wicked, he will be silent, and hide and cover sin in sinners. O wickedness indeed! His own Book holds this forth.

href="jbsgto4.html#74.22">He saith, that Christ Ascended into Heaven in our nature, (viz) in his nature, and they that are one with him; and he and they are proved to be in corrupt nature, as they will confess it. O what wickedness to hold forth that Christ is at the right hand of God in sinfull nature, as his words holds forth from his own mouth.

John Burton said, That men may depend too much upon something called Christ, and the righteousness of Christ within.

He saith, that the Devil Knows how to take the Childrens bread (viz.) Christ Jesus who only is the Childrens bread, and give him to dogs. O sad error and damnable.

He said, That the Devil deceives souls by bidding them follow the Light which they brought into the World with them.

And he confesses that Light is the Light of Christ (as God) O unutterable ignorance! can a sober man read this, and not be ashamed, to hold forth, that the Devil deceives souls by bidding them follow the Light of Christ (as God)?

He saith, they that follow Christ aright, must follow him without, to the cross without, for Justification, or mount Calvery without; they must seek for Justification without, and the Spirit of Christ it leads to Christ without.

Reader, see if this be not near unto Popery, or enquire else what he means, as if he would have people to go a Pilgrimage, and this is contrary to Rom. 10.6,7,8.

He said, That the soul of man is the Light wherewith every man is lighted by Christ as God, and this is the Light that every man brought into the World with him, and the Devil deceives souls by this Light (viz.) by the soul, this is true from his own words, let it be marked by sober men, what damnable doctrines these are, hardly fit to be raked in.

He saith further, That the Devil deceives souls by perswading them to follow the Light within, which he confesses is the Light of Christ, and that all man hath it.

He saith Conscience is the Light of God, and yet in another place saith, Conscience is defiled, what concurrence is here, let the Reader judge, to hold forth that the Light of God is defiled, his words plainly shews.

To say, that the Law is the Schoolmaster to bring to Christ, he saith, This is a frothy Argument.

And to make up his wickedness he saith, He is ruled by Scripture; consider whether those doctrines and lyes be not quite contrary to Scripture; what impudency is in this mans heart, to say he is ruled by Scripture; he saith, They that look upon * Christ no otherwayes then as he was before the World was, he dare to be bold to say they, are no Christians, but Antichristians, he saith, That * Christ as he is Mediator, so he doth not lighten every man that comes into the World, though as he is God, he doth, Mark here, he would divide Christ, not to be the same, the Son, as he is the Father; yet he confesses in his Book, What the Father doth, the Son doth also; see what contradiction here is, not worth the raking in? O blindness that may be felt in the grossest darkness he inhabits. He saith, That the Devil hath more experience of the knowledge of the eternal power, and Godhead, then unregenerate men; Mark, the word more signifies something. He saith, The Light of Christ, as God, is Conscience, and Nature it self; Mark, nature is sinful, and wicked, and all are children of Wrath, in it so are all by the Light of Christ as God wicked and children of wrath if Joh. Bunions doctrine be true, let him make it good as he can: O wonderful trash, and muddy stuff, unheard of before. He saith, The Devil deceives souls, by bidding them listen within, and see if there be not that which doth convince of sin, Mark his doctrine well. He denyes, That Paul bids listen within, contrary to that Scripture, Rom. 10.8,9. He saith, Conscience may be hardned and seared, and is naturally evill; and yet saith, Conscience is the Light of Christ, as God; see what an agreement is here, the Light of Christ, as God, is hardened, and seared, and evil, else J. Bunion must revoke his doctrine, or else prove this; Consider what stuff this is, which is held forth by him. * Compare this doctrine with Heb. 13.8. and his doctrine is proved to be damnable.

* Contrary to John 1.9.

He saith, he preaches not for hire; indeed, he had no need to receive money for such doctrines as these.

He saith, Christ is some four or five foot long, This is more then he can tell.

He reckons the doctrine of Christ within a false, (or among false) opinions.

He saith, It is contrary to Scripture to say the measure (or manifestation) of the Spirit is given to every man, though Paul saith so plainly to the Corinthians, 1 Cor. 12.7.

Mark, here he hath spoken quite contrary to Scripture, denyed that which Paul affirmed, or else counted Pauls words no Scripture.

He saith, They that are born of God do daily sin, absolute contrary to 1 Joh. 3.9. And therefore he would give the Apostle the lye.

Now Reader consider, whether thou wilt believe John Bunian, or the Apostle John, for they are at odds, and speaks quite contrary one to the other.

He saith, That the Light that shews thee there is a God, and that this God is eternal, would lead to life, then might the Devils be delivered from damnation, and the Devils knows God as a Creator, &c.

He saith, That the Light spoken of John 3. is the man Christ Jesus, and yet saith, that the man Christ Jesus is not a condemning Light.

Mark, that Scripture saith, that Light was condemnation to them that did evil; he saith, not; who must you believe?

He saith, That the Lyar and Slanderer is an Unbeliever, and his condition is sad.

Consider here, how out of his own mouth he is condemned, who is at large proved a Lyar and Slanderer; out of his own mouth will the Lord condemn him.

He saith, That a man cannot give a more right description of a false Prophet, then the Prophets, Christ, and the Apostles did give. Reply, In this thou hast truly said. Now lets consider, how thou hast; confessed to thy own shame, and laid open thy own nakedness, the Prophets said such were false Prophets as Preached for Hire, and divined for Mony, and fed themselves, and clothed themselves with the wool, and that used their Tongues, and said the Lord saith it, when God had not spoken to them, and that cryed peace to the wicked; and Christ said, such were Deceivers, who had the chiefest place in the Assembly, and stood praying in the Synagogues, and loved the uppermost rooms at Feasts, and that were called of men Master, and such like; and the Apostle said such were Deceivers, to take gifts and rewards, and lucre, and that loved unrighteous wages, and that were Back-biters, and false Accusers, and Covetous, and having a form of Godliness, but denying the Power, who ever taught, and the people were not able to come to the knowledge of the truth, with many other such like. Now this is my appeal to all mens Consciences, in the sight of God, whether thou art not found under some of these Charracters (at least) or whether thou art not one in union and fellowship, with such who act these things, yea, thou are among them, and not crying against them, and so are guilty of their sin, though not as fully in the act as are some, may be; so that I doubt not, but they who have not hardened their hearts, and blinded their eyes will see, how thou hast condemned thy self in confessing the truth; and the time is coming, that further it will be made manifest concerning thee, only at present thou art sufficiently discovered, to be out of the truth in the way of perdition; and however, though thou hast covered thy self, as much as is possible, from the stroke of thy own hand, and from the guilt of thy own confession; yet Joh. Burton, thou hast condemned an hundred, I think of Independant Ministers, (so called) thy brethren, who are known to be found guilty of those things, all or most of them, which thou confessest are marks of a false Prophet, and while thou bidst us examine our selves, thou art the man (or among them) that are proved truly guilty.

He saith, He is not come to one of the dayes of the thousand years, of Satans being chained; and this is truly confessed, and so he is in the Reign and Government of the Devil, and Satan is not bound, but at liberty in him, (as it well appears) and Christs reign is not known; and so it must needs be true, that he is of the Army of the Dragon against the Lamb.

Some of the same Members with him said, in Bedford, That they scorned that Light which convinceth of sin, (which the Quakers speaks of.)

Further, most falsly I am charged by him with railing against the Lord Jesus, which is absolute false; my words are spoken in fear and reverence of the Lord Jesus. Reader, these things I leave to thee, to be judged of, his false Slanders and his Damnable Doctrines, and wicked lying Accusations, and Contradictions which his nine sheets of paper is filled with, as if he had set himself to lye, and slander, and speak wickedly against the truth, which is over him, and is a testimony against him, and though opposed by him, yet not confounded; but him it confounds, and by it he shall be judged and condemned; and the time comes when further he may be made manifest if this be not sufficient; out of the abundance of his heart, hath his wicked Tongue uttered these things, which are but a little of what lodges in him, but let him prove these things first, and then utter more.

AND now John Bunian, thou and thy false Witnesses, and all thy Company, and brethren in iniquity, Remember and repent for the day of your visitation is upon you, blessed were you, if you could receive it, before it be spent, not to be recalled, and before the long suffering of God come to an end, and you be shut up in utter darkness: And indeed friends the day hastens wherein every man shall receive according to his deeds; he that hath done evil shall not be cloaked, and he that hath done good shall not be uncovered, in that day when the secrets of all hearts shall be laid open, and searched with the eternal Eye; the end of my work is to clear the Truth, and the Way thereof, (God is witness) from thy slanderous and lying and perverting Tongue; and only I reprove thee, by the Spirit of the Lord, and so leaves thee to receive thy reward from the Just God of righteous Judgement; who upon thy head will render vengeance in flames of Fire, in his dreadfull day, which upon thee comes suddenly, even when thou and you cries peace, peace, then shall destruction come as an armed man, from which thou shalt not fly to escape, though now you all be hardened against the Lord, and his Way and Truth, and hath even bent thy Tongue for Lyes, and hath reproached the Innocent, to the piercing of thy own soul, and one day shalt thou know it; therefore bow and tremble before the Lord God, thou and all thy Companions; a Lyar and Slanderer thou art, a Perverter and Wrester of the right Way of God, and of the Scriptures, a Hypocrite and Dissembler, a holder forth of damnable Doctrines, an envious man, and false Accuser, condemning another falsly in what thy self is fully guilty of; these things I lay to thy charge justly in the presence of the Lord God, and upon thy account are they reckoned by him, and proved by testimony in the sight of man (and may be more fully hereafter, if any thing be wanting) and one day shalt thou feel the burthen of them, though now thou be above shame; and all thy Lyes, Slanders, Deceits, Confusions, Hypocrisies, Contradictions, and damnable Doctrines of Devils, with impudency held forth by thee, shall be consumed in the Pit of Vengeance, and then shall the Witness in thy Conscience justifie the Lord (in condemning thee,)& me, to be true in reproving thee;

and this I say to thee, and you all, the Living God you know not, nor his Son Jesus Christ; but are Enemies to God, and * persecuters of the Lord of Life, and shall perish among the Uncircumcised: Ye false Witnesses, and wicked Helpers, you may be ashamed of your testimony subscribed at the beginning of his lying scribble; will you yet say through Grace, those things are true; the rather stop your mouthes in the dust, who hath offended the Lord, more then defended him, or your selves; and be ashamed in the presence of God and man; much more may be said hereafter, to lay you further open, if you yet harden your hearts in your wickedness, but I do rather reprove you, then strive with you, and rather desires your return to God, then your Condemnation by him, and with this I shall end; and by what is said in short is sufficient to manifest you, and John Bunian to all honest people, what Generation you are of, and that you are guided by a lying and unclean spirit, and that you are doing the Devils works in gain-saying the Way of Truth and Righteousness, by your multitude of Lyes and Slanders, and damnable Doctrines; and what ever you account, or falsly judge of me, yet am I true, (though as a Deceiver) and the Lords Servants, and a Witness for him, and against all your Lyes and Slanders, and Wickedness hatched amongst you, and brought forth by a lying Orator, whom you have made your mouth, into the view of the World, even a cursed Birth, and the Father of it, and the Womb that conceived it, and it shall rot, and perish as the dung, and not accomplish any part of the end, of your desire; for so loathsome it is, being truly searched, and laid open, that it hath not obtained neither the praise of God nor man, but is defamed by men, and condemned of God: * Witnesse one of their brethren a Justice of peace (so called) who imprisoned falsly the Innocent to all their shame.

Alas, alas, for thee John Bunian [editor's note] thy several months travel in grief and pain, is a fruitless Birth, and perishes as an untimely Fig, and its praise is blotted out among men, and its passed away as smoak; Truth, is atop of thee, and out-reaches thee, and thy formed weapons cannot prosper, and it shall stand for ever to confound thee, and all its Enemies: and though thou wilt not subject thy mind to serve it willingly, yet a Slave to it must thou be, and what thou dost in thy wickedness against it, the end thereof brings forth the glory of it, and thy own confounding and shame; and now be wise and learned, and put off thy Armour, for thou mayst understand the more thou strives, the more thou art entangled, and the higher thou arises in Envy, the deeper is thy fall into Confusion, and the more thy Arguments are, the more increased is thy folly, let experience teach thee, and thy own wickedness correct thee, and thus I leave thee; and if thou wilt not own the Light of Christ in thy own Conscience, now to reprove thee, and convince thee, yet in the day of Judgement thou shalt own it, and it shall witness the justness of the Judgements of the Lord, when for thy Iniquities he pleads with thee; and behold as a Thief in the night, when thou art not aware, he will come; and then, woe unto thee that art poluted.


< previous | contents |